Wording change and clarification for purchasing Immich

[alextran1502]

Hello everybody,

Alex here! After the last announcement on a wording change in response to our mishap of using the words licensed and unlicensed, the team and I gave it a long hard thought over the weekend.

I thought about it when I went to bed, I thought about it in my dream, I thought about it while doing the dishes. Taking into consideration all of your feedback and suggestions, and on behalf of the team, I am happy to show you what we came up with.

• There will be no license or unlicensed.
• We will change License Key to Product Key.
• We will show a "Buy Immich" button as the call to action. The button will only be shown if the account age is older than 14 days.
• We will give you options to hide the button for 30 days or indefinitely.

• We will change the price to a whole number $100 and $25. So get your product key now and you can save $0.01 😄
• We will add text to make our mission and intentions clear.
• We will refine the text about each option to clarify the content.

Last but not least, we will add a fancy Supporter Badge to recognize those who purchase the product. If you have any ideas to make it "shinier," let us know!

supporter-bades.mp4

Thank you again for your support and feedback. We are working on these changes and will roll out in the next release in a few days.

Have a good week!

Cheers,
Immich Team

[alepouna]

The good ending 👍

[sym0nd0]

Thanks for listening and acting on our concerns. Very happy to support Immich.

[othyn]

This is awesome! Thank you for being so reactive to the communities feedback and coming to a worthwhile compromise. Awesome to see, well done!

[truppelito]

I read through the discussion page when the change was announced and this seems to positively address all the concerns I remember being posted there. Thank you!

[Julian-1-2-3-4-5]

This is perfect thank you for listening and coming up with a good solution^^

[afonsofrancof]

Good change, just think it would be better to call it “Support Immich” instead of “Buy Immich”

[MickLesk]

@thanosapollo

"Offering AGPL-licensed software for sale does not in itself violate the license terms or EU law as long as the terms of the license are met. These conditions include in particular

1.) Accessibility of the source code: The source code must be made available to the purchaser.
2.) License information: The license terms must be clearly communicated.
3.) Freedom to redistribute: The buyer has the right to redistribute, modify and make publicly available the software (including the source code).
Under the AGPL, providers can charge fees for the service, support, maintenance or provision of the software. This means that it is legal to charge money for distributing the software as long as the source code is made available and the above conditions are met.

In summary: Offering AGPL 3.0 licensed software for sale does not violate the license or EU law, provided that the license terms are fully complied with."

But I agree with you, buy is always a not so nice paraphrase, it seems binding and obligatory.

I'm more of a fan of “sponsoring” or “supporting”

[BoBBer446]

It is true that the term "buying" is firmly defined in Germany. It grants the buyer many rights that the seller grants.
A purchase is a mutual contract that creates an obligation to exchange an item or other object, in particular a right (purchase of a right) or a set of items, for money (otherwise an exchange) (§§ 433ff. BGB).

The purchase contract obliges the seller to hand over the item to the buyer (see, however, commission, conditional transaction), i.e. to grant him possession and to procure ownership of the item or the right sold (§ 433 I BGB). As a result of the principle of abstraction that governs our law, i.e. the separation between the underlying transaction under the law of obligations and the transaction in rem, the purchase alone does not bring about a change in the legal situation; rather, the seller is only obliged to bring this about on the basis of the purchase contract (sale; transfer of ownership, disposal). The purchase contract can also be concluded subject to a condition, e.g. that the seller succeeds in procuring the item sold (reservation of self-supply); see also purchase on trial. In addition, the seller regularly has an obligation to provide information about the legal circumstances relating to the item sold, to hand over the documents serving as proof of the right (§ 444 BGB), to bear the costs of handover, packaging, in particular the costs of shipping the item sold to the place of performance (sale by delivery to destination and the cif, "fob", carriage paid, carriage paid clauses) and, under certain circumstances, to store the item until delivery, etc. If the seller is obliged to manufacture the item itself in addition to procuring the material, this constitutes a contract for work and materials.

[MickLesk]

What you mean, however, relates to normal purchase contracts. Here you have to define it a little differently (also by using the word “purchase”). Ultimately, it's really just a spelling issue, buying is always difficult. 1) There must be contractual clarity as to what you are “buying” here and what the “added benefit” is, since there is no added benefit in the direct sense, you can discuss “misleading”, but that in turn is a matter of communication, as described in the “Immich” program.
I assume you are also from Germany? Partly the land of poets and thinkers, but partly also a lot of legal bullshit, regulations and laws.

[BoBBer446]

Whether it is legal nonsense or not:
In Germany, you enter into a legally valid purchase contract by clicking the "Buy" button.

Amazon, eBay and other retailers in Germany have also come to realize this. This is also the case in the EU. Whether it is good or bad is up for debate.

I didn't write anything about legal advice. I'm just saying that in the EU the word "purchase" is firmly defined and the buyer has many rights.

[basdp]

@thanosapollo
In summary: Offering AGPL 3.0 licensed software for sale does not violate the license or EU law, provided that the license terms are fully complied with."

You forgot the most important part: any licensee (basically all of us, as we now all have this source code and are thus licensed to use it under the AGPL) can freely distribute it FOR FREE, even if the original team would only give the source code after paying. This inherently summarized what is the main flaw with this whole plan. You can't sell licenses to open source software. It wouldn't be 'open' anymore.

[Skywalker8510]

The positive response to community feedback makes me so much happier to support the project.

[Enigmind]

Perfect ! I was going to buy Immich anyway to support this great project, but I am glad you actually care and listen the community. Wish you all the best.

To make a little suggestion, you could add a badge/role on the discord server for those who purchased a license the product !

[alextran1502]

This will be a logistic nightmare to implement, so maybe at some points 😄 we need to get back to working on actual features and fixing bugs hehe

[jordanwalster]

Based on what I've read in the past, there's supposed to be no "talking home", so how does the per user supporter status work, whilst also being lifetime? e.g. I run immich at home, but then I move to an installation run by a friend instead - how is this all verified?

[alextran1502]

Key validation is completely local to the Immich server. When you buy a key, you receive two keys: A short key, and a long activation key. Both are needed to cryptographically validate your purchase. For convenience, you have the option of pasting in only the product key, which is then used to retrieve the activation key from the payment server. No information about this is retained on the payment server.

[Manic-87]

I was one of those who criticized the change because of the wording and the possible implications going paywalled (although you say it won't happen. I just don't trust such stuff if I think the actions taken indicate otherwise).
With these changes all my worries are gone. This reflects exactly how I have seen immich and the team before the "license"-stuff.

Only one more thing: Please make it possible to hide the supporter badge via settings.
When I'm financially a bit more stable I will definitely buy a product key, but I hate seeing such stuff.

[Skywalker8510]

Yea it would be nice to have the choice to hide the supporter badge probably just a toggle in settings.

[alextran1502]

Yes, planning to do that as well

[lusu007]

I like this change.

What about a group on the Discord server? Or some extra community channels?

[lightweight]

Actually @lusu007, if I want to participate in the dynamic discussion related to this excellent app, I do need to use Discord - it is, so far as I know, the only place such discussion takes place. I wrote this a few years back to explain why this is an unfortunate imposition on the community and undermines its values.

[bo0tzz]

the only place such discussion takes place

Isn't such discussion also taking place on github, right this moment?

Fwiw, I agree that Discord kind of sucks, but the reality is that for most folks it's the most accessible platform.

[lightweight]

the only place such discussion takes place

Isn't such discussion also taking place on github, right this moment?

It's also an imposition on community participants who value openness and freedom to be using (proprietary, Microsoft-owned) Github. I run my own Gitlab and Forgejo instances to avoid imposing on any who want to collaborate with me on my projects.

Fwiw, I agree that Discord kind of sucks, but the reality is that for most folks it's the most accessible platform.

Yes, it does suck. Mostly because it's a proprietary platform that holds your community's data - you have to give them your data so you can log in, to be able to see any of that data. A similarly functional platform like Matrix - which is fully libre/FOSS - allows participation just as easily (there're many millions with Matrix accounts) and is distributed, so you can even use your own Matrix server (I run a couple).

[bo0tzz]

Running our own code forge or chat server would take away valuable resources from developing the software itself. This is unfortunately an area where pragmatism wins over ideology, for us.

[lightweight]

Running our own code forge or chat server would take away valuable resources from developing the software itself. This is unfortunately an area where pragmatism wins over ideology, for us.

heh. Here're 53 of the web services I run. Here're a bunch (30ish) more. Plus I run another dozen or more of my own. I'm one guy - I run these all single handedly. I also do a LOT of development (more than half of my time). Self-hosting is not a significant overhead, nor cost. It just isn't. Look - I really appreciate that you've made your Immich project Copyleft. It's great. But regarding technology choices, although I get why you've done it, your tech decisions do colour your community - the decisions you've made so far effectively sell out your community and its data to proprietary vendors for your convenience, and they undermine the values you imply by having made your code libre in the first place.

[aildaan]

This is why I already bought the server support! Keep it going guys and don't ever change directions!

[Enigmind]

Happy we are, us, who spared 0.01$

[solankimihir]

This just made my day!
Thank you for listening to us and I love it.

[Skywalker8510]

quick question if I buy a individual purchase of Immich does that apply to my app regardless of what server I’m on or is it server specific?

[bo0tzz]

It applies to you and you can use it on any server.

[Skywalker8510]

Awesome thanks

[bernhard4116]

I don't mind how you call it, I'll support you anyway! You're doing a great job, thanks a lot! ❤️🔥

[nicomerl]

I thought about it when I went to bed, I thought about it in my dream, I thought about it while doing the dishes.

On the one side i Like that you think about Changes Like this alot, on the other side it should not get out of hand.. i was Reading Lots of opinions on Reddit that were Not really fair. People Not wanting to pay anything but praise Immich to Heaven two days before. Yeah, the wording was not Perfect, but the only thing we can do is trust your words and Immich and the Team is absolutely smashing it. This is the one private Solution for photohosting, so maybe thats why people get so emotional.

Keep up the work and maybe dont read too much Reddit After Mayor changes :D

[alm059]

This is the way. Thanks for your work from a happy supporter!

[daudo]

thanks for the modifications, I really like the way this has worked out now!

And so I just purchased and activated a server license, but what I fail to see is how to produce an invoice or similar. How can I receive an invoice?

[bo0tzz]

Send an email to [email protected], they'll help you out

[xy-tech]

Is there a way to donate via BTC or ETH or some other cryptocurrency? I don't see a way to do this on the payment screen and if you guys could provide your public addresses, that'd be swell ;)

[alextran1502]

As far as I know, the FUTO team is also working on different payment methods. I will you update if they come up with ways to accept crypto payment

[basdp]

But you don't 'BUY' Immich.. This is still wrong... Also why need this be on EVERY. SINGLE. PAGE. ??

[alextran1502]

Part of your instance/server status. We give you option to hide, so you can do that if you don't want to see it

[basdp]

Last but not least, we will add a fancy Supporter Badge to recognize those who purchase the product. If you have any ideas to make it "shinier," let us know!

Yes, remove it. It's distracting. It's a photo's app, get out of our way. I will support you if you don't bug me in my photos app' home screen. This is just annoying me...

[alextran1502]

We give the user the option to hide it or to leave it.

[basdp]

That would be a perfectly acceptable solution for me! :-)

[MickLesk]

@alextran1502
In conjunction with your video - I have one little UI idea. Maybe you like them too?

=> give the possibility to put the supporter badge on the profile picture of the user, not in the sense of replacing the photo, but a fancy frame - this eliminates it at the bottom left
Here is a short example:
https://onecompiler.com/html/42m6sgjzu (click RUN)

Example:

• It is purchased
• Users have the options:
  1.) hide all

2. Show badge (default)
3. Fancy frame on profile picture :D

[OmniBlade]

But if you don't have something for the "product key" to unlock what are you actually buying other than a number?

[Nordlicht-13]

You buy the good feeling, that you are supporting the developers.

[WoofThatByte]

I don't mind supporting a product that I use.

But what happens If I buy the server license and I migrate my hardware to a new server? Do i lose the license? I mean...is it possible to move the license to another server?

Thanks

[bo0tzz]

Validation is purely local, so you can use it on any instance you think it's appropriate to use it on ;)

[OmniBlade]

You aren't buying a license, you have a license to use just by virtue of having a copy under the AGPLv3.

[shields-lv]

Tonfotos the same price

[bo0tzz]

But not open source

[monotok]

I really value immich, it is a fantastic project and currently sponsor immich on a monthly basis. In a little over 4 years I would have paid the same as a server license.
I think adding a monthly option of say $5 a month for those who wish to make an ongoing contribution would be a good idea :)

[Clear2437]

Love the changes and that you listened to the community. Just got my server the lifetime $100 supporter badge. Thanks for your awesome product and continued work, keep it up! <3

[OmniBlade]

When you sell something you have to convey it to that person... what exactly is being conveyed to someone when they already have a fully licensed install? Be honest and make it something like "Buy a supporters key", because you aren't buying immich the project or immich the name or immich the software license or immich the software support contract. Is there some legalease that sits behind "buy" that clarifies exactly what good or service is being bought?

[knaak]

Any idea when people who have been supporting this project via sponsorship will receive their keys?

[bo0tzz]

https://buy.immich.app/claim

[knaak]

Thank you.

[leepfrog-ger]

Are there any options to receive a key for those who donated through liberapay?

[bo0tzz]

Please send us an email at [email protected] with some details, proof of payment etc. and we'll try to get you hooked up.

[paul-jewell]

I understand the need to raise funds for Open Source projects, and already make contributions to the projects I use here. I will be doing so with Immich at some point in the very near future (as in days). One question this (and other examples of working to make open source projects sustainable): As far as I can tell, Immich is built on many other libraries and open source projects - how much of my $100 will be passed upstream to the teams responsible for those projects?

[alextran1502]

FUTO sends out grands to other projects every few months. The most recent one that got sent out since we joined, we picked exiftool since we depends heavily on it.

You can watch the video here https://youtu.be/o4k5W3X5veQ?si=PcYtSB7DrLr8XyFJ

[paul-jewell]

The projects in the video are all high level user facing projects, and well done to FUTO for the grants. I am thinking more about the "under the hood" projects that provide the glue to enable developers to deliver those projects. This question first came to mind for me when I was looking at Proxmox. They also (quite understandably) would like users to buy a licence to use their product. But their software layer sits on top of a whole ecosystem, which in codebase terms probably exceeds their codebase significantly. Please don't take this as me having a go at the Proxmox developers: I don't know whether they contribute downwards or not, and may be doing them a disservice.
The examples of small, unsupported software projects being leveraged by the "non-free" companies for nothing are manifest. The behaviour of these companies in treating "Open source" as "free to use" with no moral obligation is to me outrageous. Open source projects using open source code have the opportunity to be different.
I think we should be looking at a funding model which trickles down payments to the contributors at all levels. Your project does well, then you benefit, and the developers of the libraries you use also benefit.
Anyway, I don't expect you to change anything based on my comments, but I do ask that you consider them.
Thank you for Immich: it is a fantastic product, so you and the other developers deserve to be able to make a living out of it!

[BoBBer446]

FUTO sends out grands to other projects every few months. The most recent one that got sent out since we joined, we picked exiftool since we depends heavily on it.

You can watch the video here https://youtu.be/o4k5W3X5veQ?si=PcYtSB7DrLr8XyFJ

About what WE are talking Here? Is immich and all functions Always free or is there a bit exklusive content in Future?

If WE Talk about a Donation i did Not understood why in hell wer Talk about licences and other Bad wordings If "Donation" is the perfect wordings.

[0xFEEDC0DE64]

I wont pay for immich as long as the android app keeps logging us out every time there is any network issues. This is the main reason we can't completely switch to immich fully

[BoBBer446]

Android Version?
Model? I cant say that i Had the Same issue.

[MickLesk]

Never heard of such a Bug. I have been using immich for almost 1 year and it just keeps running and running and running.