Shields: blocking out some quick ideas, including some loose facing-like mechanics

[I-am-Erk]

This isn't quite at the level of an Issue post, so I thought I would just jot down some thoughts on how a shield implementation should work as it comes up often and deserves more close attention.

A quality shield should be extremely useful against zombies. However, zombies don't behave exactly like humans, and this should be relevant to considerations of how to use shields. Further, shields are unique compared to current defences in that they really shouldn't offer 360 degree protection if possible. I would like to suggest the following infrastructure before we implement shields:

1. multiple hands. Shields should be wielded in an off-hand to allow features related to grip and arm strength to affect your shield use, and to allow some shields to be wielded with two hands for extra effect. Having them modelled as something worn on your arm is janky.
2. "targeted" defence priorities. This is a full feature request in itself that I or someone should write up, but with changes upcoming to block and dodge, I think we should consider some way of tracking who you are currently defending against. This should be something mostly handled automatically, but with the option to override auto. I would say the player should assess the threat level of all targets in melee range, and consider the current most deadly enemy to be the "priority" defence. Automatic defences like dodge and block then would dodge/block attacks from this enemy primarily, enemies near that one secondarily, and would be least likely to dodge/block enemies far away from it. If there were multiple equal enemies, we'd choose the one the player attacked more recently first, or failing that, the one the player defended from most recently (or was hit by most recently). Alternately, we might change 'targeted' defence to the enemy most recently attacked by the player once the player makes an attack just because that then presumes you are facing that way, and only use threat rating up until that point.

This would specifically be for situations like this:

aHb
 @
 c

where a, b, and c are zombies and H is a hulk. In this scenario, the player would automatically select the hulk to defend against. Because a and b are next to the hulk, the player would be pretty likely to defend against them. However, because c is now "behind" the player, automatic defences are less likely to choose to dodge c's attacks.

We are generally opposed to facing rules, but I think when we get into shields we need to consider some stuff about what direction the shield is facing. This also helps us model the difference between trying to avoid attacks from two zombies in front of you versus two zombies on opposite sides of you.

Once those systems are in, we should consider what shields do:

• very effectively block physical attacks from a single target
• depending on size, potentially block attacks from several targets near each other
• transfer attack energy both to the material of the shield and to the arm holding it.

Zombies will try to grab shields, I would say at a high rate. If a zombie is blocked by a shield, they should very frequently counter by grabbing it. This would let you continue to use the shield, but would slow your ability to bring it to bear on other zombies - hence that pseudo-facing stuff I just suggested. If zombie a in the above image grabs your shield, you can still use it against zombie a, but depending on your strength and zombie a's weight, it'll be harder to use it against the hulk, and harder still to use it against zombies b and c.

On the other hand, if you are fighting the hulk, then zombie c should neither be blocked by your shield, nor should it have a chance to grab your shield.

Multiple zombies might grab your shield, and then depending on their weight and your strength, you might lose your grip on it. If your arm is strapped to the shield, we should damage both those straps and your arm. Which gives out first? What fun! Now you can be picked up by your riot shield and tossed in the air by a hulk!

Heavier shields should have reduced block rates against targets further from your priority. Larger shields should have increased block rates against nearby zombies.

Shields are great bashing/pushing tools, and we should also be able to model that. I haven't got any further thoughts on that yet though.

[SV-Evillevi]

Beep Beep Boop boop,

So this be a new account (and apologies for breaching some common etiquette, I'm new and I kinda really am clueless about git hub etiquette ) but the discussion is too interesting to keep silent.

Shields are kinda weird because they aren't universally useful as each category of shields are designed for different purpose and suckkkkkkkkk outside of their intended use case

Ordering my thoughts via the size of shields

1. Small shields (buckler size) are basically metal gauntlets designed to be low encumbrance and useful for deflecting/dodging/blocking weapons with your hands. To that extent their probably the easiest to model since if you can martial art a zombie bare handed, with the small shield you can martial art even harder as the shield makes punches heavier, afford protection so you can block more dmg , block more often, and is low encumbarance enough to not noticeably tire you out. The even smaller shields are probably small enough that even people actively grabbing it won't reliably work. THe downside is that they suck vs weapons with reach
2. Medium+ large hand held (medieval/traditional) shield are useless vs a zombie as their almost exclusively designed vs arrows/weapons and suck if you're close enough to wrestle with. Holding these shields with your hand has the explicit design purpose of making pivoting easier for deflection against weapon and/or minimising how much arm is behind the shield when it inevitably gets punctured (by arrows mostly). These.... are way too encumbering and heavy (as you're leveraging it with your wrist/shoulders) and are easy to grapple with and work around
3. Strap on shields (like riot shields) are designed to resist forces applied against the user and to allow enough leverage to whack someone trying to grapple it. Their not as maneuverable as the medium shields in point (2) and as such are much much worse against weapons. Because their strapped onto you , you can more readily brace your self and resist a much larger amount of force in both directions. It's also one directional since you can only brace yourself in one direction

Now in my head , if you wanted to include it "realistically" into the game, the only shields worth using would be small shields and strap on shields. Small shields being essentially the bigger, badder, brother to punching glove. Strap on shields (with the riot sshield being the best version) are basically stand your ground weapons. You use it like the Niten ichi ryou where it has anti grapple protection, grapple cancel and enhanced damage... in one direction. The Medium+large hand held shields are amazing vs weapons.... but zombies generally dont use weapons.....

However in game the easiest way to model it is to treat it like the the leather bracers of defense from magiclysm, just with different stats and you're like 60-80% of the way to modeling shields in CDDA.

In the long term, there should be a discussion with whether shields are individual items or part of a collective melee system since shields aren't actually standalone in their use (unless talking about pacifistic riot shields (IE no baton to harm civilians) or buckler based CQC). Currrently you'll more accurately model shields by attaching RNG martial art moves into the shield so when wielded/worn it provides a chance to activate something.

For example

-Small shields (and depending on which type of small shield) might have increase punch damage AND +1 block attempt
-Use a rework version of the Lizard Kung fu "Adjacent to wall "requirement to activate a Riot shield buff when the player is only adjacent to 2 or less zombies.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay gonna try and put this here:

"2. Medium+ large hand held (medieval/traditional) shield are useless vs a zombie as their almost exclusively designed vs arrows/weapons and suck if you're close enough to wrestle with. Holding these shields with your hand has the explicit design purpose of making pivoting easier for deflection against weapon and/or minimising how much arm is behind the shield when it inevitably gets punctured (by arrows mostly). These.... are way too encumbering and heavy (as you're leveraging it with your wrist/shoulders) and are easy to grapple with and work around"

This is false. Many shields with different types of grips were designed for melee fighting where opponents actively tried to, often in groups, to grab and wrench the shield out of a good defensive position, with or without a weapon, all the time. They were still useful in this context,

Just spend some time watching videos about fighting shields in general

https://www.youtube.com/user/shadmbrooks/search?query=shield
https://www.youtube.com/c/Skallagrim/search?query=shield
https://www.youtube.com/c/scholagladiatoria/search?query=shield
https://www.youtube.com/c/lindybeige/search?query=shield

[Eisenknochen]

IDC if I'm late to the party but I googled "CDDA shields" and found this so I will just add my 2 cents and support Gavinfoox's argument. Against an unarmed and especially clueless enemy like a Zombie, a medium (round or kite) sized shield would work wonders if you have a short weapon like a dagger/knife or hatchet in your other hand since the Z would have no way of getting around your shield while you can strike at it from safety. Would it be exhausting to struggle with a Z grabbing on your shield? Certainly, but the Z grabbing your shield effectively occupies it so you're free to attack it while it scratches/gnaws against your shield, rendering it harmless. In a 1v1 you would need to actively try to lose that engagement.
In a 1v2 you could occupy one Z with the shield while fending off the other with your main weapon.
Starting with a 1v3 the shield becomes less useful.

If you wield a pistol instead, you could do the same but more efficient, just press the barrel against the grabbing Z and unload. No need for precise aiming at a distance.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uhm, medium to large shields of all sorts are amazing at handling humanoid enemies trying to grab you and use various weapons and unarmed attacks against you. That was their primary purpose for thousands of years. Look up some of the HEMA and reenactment types on youtube as they talk about how insanely useful in all sorts of melee scuffles that shields are! There are specialized types for group fighting or for dueling or for defending against arrows, but by and large a huge variety of them are GREAT in a melee!

[Gavinfoxx]

What I mean is, even if a group is attacking you completely recklessly with no sense of self preservation, shields of all sizes still have MASSIVE amounts of utility in melee as long as they aren't the types that are hyper specialized for extremely limited types of group fighting. Which the discussion about their use for the medium bit ignores.

[I-am-Erk]

Are you replying to the post above? I'm a bit confused here as you replied to the root level thread, but you seem to be addressing the other post in here which you didn't reply to. I've never argued that shields aren't effective in melee, this post is almost exclusively about using them in melee.

[SV-Evillevi]

Hi would you mind linking anything regarding Hema vs groups. Or some other key words that I can use to search by myself.

My google fu is too weak and I keep getting group fighting vs other human with weapons, which I don't think represent how zombies fight all that well

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh, I didn't realize there were two different reply boxes, I'm used to forums with a single reply box. I'm discussing the way the conversation is going overall in my replies, I suppose?

And my point is that shields are useful even when the enemy is prone to try and grab the edge of your shield and wrench it out of the way -- that is an expected martial arts technique and there are other techniques to mitigate the threat of that, and even in that case, the simple fact you have a shield covering half of your body limits the options and types of attacks available to any human shaped melee attacker. And further, most designs of shields are perfectly great at punching with the spike or the edge as an offensive weapon. And I'm not sure of any specific video addressing zombies, but any video that discusses martial arts when armed against groups of unarmed attackers would be fine. And yes, you want plate armor and a BIG greatsword or nodachi or similar two handed cutting/chopping focused weapon in a zombie apocalypse and a short falchion for close in work, but the idea of a shield not being useful against human shaped enemies that favor closing to grappling range and suicidal attack styles is kind of ludicrous.

[I-am-Erk]

There's no plan for shields not to be an effective tool against multiple melee combatants, I don't know why you keep defending that stance, it needs no defending. What we do need to implement them is the ability to be completely overwhelmed, because after some point there will be too many zombies with a death grip on your shield for it to work effectively anymore, especially against another zombie coming up behind you.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just in general, I want one of these to be available. Lots of ways to hook and grab limbs with them! And definitely not about combating arrows, much more about grabbing limbs and claws and swords and such and keeping them away from you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPeh9RmGwl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXYltNPlMaM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t4-VzDI99Y&t=360s