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diary-aug-2010.htm
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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en">
<head>
<title>diary-aug-2010 </title>
<link href=".code/preferred.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/>
</head>
<body>
<p class='header'>
<a href="_home.htm">Home</a> | <a href="_faq.htm">FAQ</a> | <a href="_thesis.htm">Thesis</a> | <a href="_diary.htm">Diary</a> | <a href="_projects.htm">Projects</a> | <a href="resume.htm">Resume</a> | <a href="_todo.htm">Todo</a> | <a href="_index.htm">Index</a> |<p>
<p class='main'><span class="rel">Related:</span> <a href="diary.htm">diary</a><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-31-2010:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://Ressler.at/comuna_under_construction">Ressler.at/comuna_under_construction</a> and <a class="ext" href="http://NottinghamContemporary.org/event/geopolitical-turn">NottinghamContemporary.org/event/geopolitical-turn</a><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-31-2010:</span> <a href="title.htm">Title</a> <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as: Retargeting Growth as <a href="pay.htm">Pay</a>er <a href="proper.htm">Proper</a>ty, <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>t as Return, <a href="use.htm">Use</a>-Value as Compensation for Risk, Breaking our Addiction to Scarcity,<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-31-2010:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://Wiki.Debian.org/FreedomBox">Wiki.Debian.org/FreedomBox</a> <span class="quot2">>>Inspired by Eben Moglen's vision of a small, cheap and simple <a href="compu.htm">compu</a>ter that serves <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom in the home, we are <a href="buil.htm">buil</a>ding a Debian-based platform for distributed applications.</span><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-31-2010:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://UtahsOwn.Utah.Gov">UtahsOwn.Utah.Gov</a> <span class="quot2">>>Utah's <a href="own.htm">Own</a>.....keeping it here at home...... Shop Utah - Buy Utah - <a href="buil.htm">Buil</a>d Utah Find locally <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ed <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ts</span><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-31-2010:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://HansenHives.com">HansenHives.com</a><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-26-2010:</span> Some <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as for using the <a href="file.htm">File</a>system in <a href="user.htm">User</a> <a href="spac.htm">Spac</a>e <small>(FUSE)</small> <a href="lib.htm">lib</a>rary:<br/>
<br/>
<a href="mount.htm">Mount</a> <a href="web.htm">Web</a> Sites, E<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> Accounts, Blogs, Forums, RSS.<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> The 'Subject' is a directory name containing one or more messages.<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> Each message appears as a plain text <a href="file.htm">file</a>.<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> Attachments appear as regular <a href="file.htm">file</a>s in that same directory.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="mount.htm">Mount</a>ing a wiki is a bit <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>e<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> because each <a href="file.htm">file</a> has multiple versions.<br/>
<br/>
We could deliver and <a href="sync.htm">sync</a>hronize *all* <a href="file.htm">file</a>s for an entire OS.<br/>
<br/>
This is related to the goals of LazyLoad.<br/>
<br/>
We could <a href="install.htm">install</a> and update software, configuration <a href="file.htm">file</a>s, and content of all varieties.<br/>
<br/>
For example: A 'Movies' directory might contain a small screenshot of everything available, but those <a href="file.htm">file</a>s would not be streamed or downloaded unless the <a href="user.htm">user</a> attempts to view them...<br/>
<br/>
Notice this is the same operational paradigm as a <a href="web.htm">web</a> page.<br/>
<br/>
This approach could also be <a href="use.htm">use</a>d in MiniMacs to 'vote' for changes in configuration <a href="file.htm">file</a>s, etc.<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-26-2010:</span> Consumer <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership Groups <small>(COGs)</small>:<br/>
Organize groups of consumers to buy and <a href="own.htm">own</a> the Physical <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es of that which they consume.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-26-2010:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://P2PFoundation.net/Invested_Consumption">P2PFoundation.net/Invested_Consumption</a> <span class="quot2">>>Vera Churiloy: The Hoop team calls it an experiment in invested consumption: an analytical assessment of the impact we <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e from what we consume, with what we get in returns. Jones believes no one's mixed consuming and investing before. -- <a class="ext" href="http://JoinTheHoop.com">JoinTheHoop.com</a></span><br/>
<br/>
Yes, let's help consumers invest for *<a href="real.htm">real</a>* <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="work.htm">Work</a>ers will avoid debt<br/>
<br/>
When <a href="user.htm">user</a>s <a href="own.htm">own</a> <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es, the <a href="obj.htm">Obj</a>ects are not bought or sold.<br/>
<br/>
When you <a href="own.htm">own</a> an Apple tree, you also <a href="own.htm">own</a> the Apples - even before they are formed.<br/>
You wouldn't buy the Apples from your yourself, because you <a href="own.htm">own</a> them already.<br/>
<br/>
But what if you <a href="own.htm">own</a>ed the tree with a neighbor?<br/>
How would you divide the <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>t each season?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
The <a href="own.htm">own</a>er of a cow doesn't buy milk, he <a href="own.htm">own</a>s it already.<br/>
The <a href="own.htm">own</a>er of bees doesn't buy honey, he <a href="own.htm">own</a>s it already.<br/>
<br/>
The <a href="own.htm">own</a>er of a vine doesn't buy wine, he <a href="own.htm">own</a>s it already.<br/>
The <a href="own.htm">own</a>er of barley doesn't buy beer, he <a href="own.htm">own</a>s it already.<br/>
<br/>
But those <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es must be hosted by the <a href="land.htm">Land</a>, Water, Tools and Energy they need.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-26-2010:</span> Thinking about lists of ITEMS as "<a href="title.htm">Title</a>s", "Chronological Events" or "Discrete Terms".<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-19-2010:</span> Synthetic, <a href="virt.htm">Virt</a>ual, Fake, Hosted<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-19-2010:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://JASSS.SOC.Surrey.AC.UK">JASSS.SOC.Surrey.AC.UK</a> <span class="quot2">>>Journal of <a href="art.htm">Art</a>ificial Societies and Social Simulation</span><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-13-2010:</span> Noticed <a class="ext" href="http://Blog.ShareWiki.org">Blog.ShareWiki.org</a><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-13-2010:</span> Joined <a class="ext" href="http://Lists.FreeActive.net/pipermail/sharewiki-freeactive.net">Lists.FreeActive.net/pipermail/sharewiki-freeactive.net</a><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-12-2010:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://www.bi-me.com/main.php?id=47678&t=1&c=37&cg=4&mset=1011">http://www.bi-me.com/main.php?id=47678&t=1&c=37&cg=4&mset=1011</a> <span class="quot2">>>Jim Rogers says wheat, agricultural commodities set for steep <a href="pric.htm">pric</a>e rises</span><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
Samuel Rose wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> If a <a href="work.htm">work</a>er cannot accumulate what they earn,</span><br/>
<br/>
Nobody can 'earn' <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a>!<br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> only occurs when Consumers lack <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Consider this scenario:<br/>
<br/>
Let's say I'm good at jack-hammering, but am sick and tired of my boss being paid more than it <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>s him to supply the tools and to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> my wage.<br/>
<br/>
After many years of saving I finally have enough to buy my <a href="own.htm">own</a> jack-hammer. So I quit my <a href="job.htm">job</a> as a wage-slave and advertise my services as an entrepreneur.<br/>
<br/>
Soon I have many clients and things are going quite well.<br/>
<br/>
One day a wealthy so-and-so suddenly decides he is going to open a tool-<a href="rent.htm">rent</a>al business with a strange goal: The terms of operation for this business is to "Break even, but do not charge enough to <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a>."<br/>
<br/>
So now everyone in the area is able to <a href="rent.htm">rent</a> jack-hammers and <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> exactly the same a<a href="mount.htm">mount</a> it <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>s me in oil, repairs, extra <a href="part.htm">part</a>s, etc.<br/>
<br/>
Now whenever someone needs such <a href="work.htm">work</a> done, I can only charge the <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>s plus Wages - where Wages are determined on the "open market".<br/>
<br/>
This, by definition, means I will no longer be able to collect <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> because competition in that field is now under perfect competition.<br/>
<br/>
In other words, competition reduces <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> and perfect competition *eliminates* <a href="profit.htm">profit</a>.<br/>
<br/>
The reason for this is that before the tools were available to the Consumers "at <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>", I was able to keep other <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers from competing against me because the barrier-to-entry was the initial expense of the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion <small>(the jack-hammer)</small>.<br/>
<br/>
This shows that <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> has nothing to do with <a href="work.htm">Work</a>, but is only a result of Consumers lacking at-<a href="cost.htm">cost</a> access to the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion - and where the *ultimate* guarantee of at-<a href="cost.htm">cost</a> access is through <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
Josef Davies-Coates wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> Patrick Anderson wrote:</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is *undefined* when the Consumer</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> is also the <a href="own.htm">Own</a>er.</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>></span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> There can be no <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence between</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> <a href="pric.htm">Pric</a>e and <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a> in that case because</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> the <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t is not being purchased.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Er, no.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Take the example of The Co-operative Group</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> in the UK.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> They are technically <a href="own.htm">own</a>ed by the Consumers.</span><br/>
<br/>
I guess by 'technically' you mean 'not'.<br/>
<br/>
Sorry, but these Co-operatives are not doing what i describe.<br/>
<br/>
Consider a small group that <a href="own.htm">own</a>s a small dairy.<br/>
<br/>
You'll need to keep the sizes small during this mental exercise because we have been programmed to believe larger groups *MUST* be governed in a representative manner even though that is not true.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="imag.htm">Imag</a>ine the number of members just 2 people if you must.<br/>
<br/>
Now, when the milk is taken from the cattle and <a href="stor.htm">stor</a>ed in the refrigerator, *who* is the <a href="own.htm">own</a>er of that <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t?<br/>
<br/>
Will each of the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers be required to *buy* the milk from the collective as a whole, or will they just split it up according to how much <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership they each have in the dairy?<br/>
<br/>
If there were just two people, will they each be required to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> into some strange pool that they will then <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> themselves again?<br/>
<br/>
Does this change at 3 people? 4, 5, 10, 20, 100, 1000?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a>s are re-distributed to members</span><br/>
<br/>
That is what those cooperatives are ignorantly doing, but that is not what I am describing.<br/>
<br/>
This is a result of a poor arrangement where the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers have to buy the <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t <a href="back.htm">back</a> from themselves! What a bunch of fools!<br/>
<br/>
Those extra transactions are also targets for the containing governments to punish them with sales tax and open them to scrutiny as to whether they should be allowed to sell something as dangerous as raw milk, whereas what I describe side-steps these issues altogether.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> Consumer Co-ops are the solutions to your</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> problems Patrick.</span><br/>
<br/>
Er, no.<br/>
<br/>
Cooperatives are definitely not what we need to move forward to a world of <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom and diversity.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> can safely and fully eliminated when the consumers are *<a href="real.htm">real</a>* <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a>ers in the means of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion, and not until then.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
<br/>
Samuel Rose wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> In Josef's example, we can only call "<a href="profit.htm">profit</a>" by it's name > while the <a href="work.htm">work</a>er simply accumulates wealth.</span><br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is the <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence between Consumer <a href="pric.htm">Pric</a>e and <a href="own.htm">Own</a>er <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>s. Why pretend it is anything else?<br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is *undefined* when the Consumer is also the <a href="own.htm">Own</a>er.<br/>
<br/>
There can be no <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence between <a href="pric.htm">Pric</a>e and <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a> in that case because the <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t is not being purchased.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> What often happens is that the</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <a href="work.htm">work</a>er, over time, either by need, or choice, needs to redistribute</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> that "<a href="profit.htm">profit</a>" towards procuring food, energy, access, etc.</span><br/>
<br/>
We are addicted to the notion that all these things must be purchased instead of <a href="real.htm">real</a>izing we could <a href="own.htm">own</a> them as a "side effect" of having <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion AS A CONSUMER.<br/>
<br/>
For example, if you <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a> <a href="part.htm">part</a> of a dairy, then you do not need to *buy* your portion of the milk from the collective others - you <a href="own.htm">own</a> it already as a result of your having <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es.<br/>
<br/>
This is a great way to side-step the Gestapo trying to stop us from <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>ing locally: simply stop <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>ing <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ts and <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>e only services instead. But in order to do so, the Consumers must invest and <a href="own.htm">own</a> the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es of that which they need with the ROI being at-<a href="cost.htm">cost</a> <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> This may be resolvable by the <a href="work.htm">work</a>er <a href="own.htm">own</a>ing the means of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion.</span><br/>
<br/>
This will be resolved when the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers <a href="own.htm">own</a> the means of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion for that which they CONSUME, for then they will not need to beg for <a href="work.htm">work</a> nor will they need to remain on the side of the Capitalists who seek scarcity in their drive to keep <a href="pric.htm">Pric</a>es above <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>s.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
<br/>
Josef Davies-Coates wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> In most <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers co-op members are both paid a wage and receive a</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> dividend <small>(share of <a href="profit.htm">profit</a>s)</small> relative to how much <a href="work.htm">work</a> they have done.</span><br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is not a result of <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er Effort, it is a result of Consumer Dependence caused by lack of <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion.<br/>
<br/>
So, from a systems perspective, treating <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> as a reward for <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers is dangerous because it creates a positive-feed<a href="back.htm">back</a> loop that further concentrates <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership into the hands of those few.<br/>
<br/>
Treating <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> as a reward for the <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers is the cause of Primitive Accumulation and the concentration of power we already see in the absentee-<a href="land.htm">land</a>lord <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership arrangement.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> I've begun to notice the in-fighting<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> Revisiting <a class="ext" href="http://EconFuture.WordPress.com">EconFuture.WordPress.com</a> <span class="quot2">>><a href="econ.htm">econ</a>future offers random thoughts on what the <a href="econ.htm">econ</a>omy of the future will look like. How will accelerating technology intertwine with globalization to shape the remainder of the twenty-first century? What <a href="real.htm">real</a>ities will our children face when it is their turn to enter the <a href="work.htm">work</a>force?</span><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> Joined <a class="ext" href="http://Unstructure.org">Unstructure.org</a> <span class="quot2">>>Unstructure is an open discussion platform for business professionals, bloggers and contemporary thought leaders to discuss and debate action <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as that would aid the evolution of business. Unstructure consists of an online discussion forum <small>(where you are <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ently)</small>, an annual physical event and a book of insight and action <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as for businesses of the future.</span><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-09-2010:</span> <a href="title.htm">Title</a> <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a: Tactical Abundance -- Designing Investment and <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion Strategies for an Age of Plenty<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-08-2010:</span> Posted to Alex Rollin<br/>
Alex Rollin wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> I feel the need to say yhat <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers are consumers</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> when the <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion systems are in the common pool.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">>There need be no <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence in <a href="stat.htm">stat</a>us class or rights</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> from my view.</span><br/>
<br/>
I've been trying to loosen my views lately in the direction you describe, but I see some big problems with being so inexact.<br/>
<br/>
There are many psychological troubles here - where the <a href="hard.htm">hard</a>est <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers are rewarded no more than the lazy, and so are taught each round to <a href="work.htm">work</a> less and less.<br/>
<br/>
But maybe even more important is the issue of who <a href="own.htm">own</a>s the outputs.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is *undefined* when Consumers <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a> the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es directly <small>(this is not how Consumer Cooperatives <a href="work.htm">work</a>. Instead, a committee *sells* the <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ts to the Consumer-<a href="own.htm">Own</a>ers <small>[who should already be the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers]</small>, and in doing so collects <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> against those <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers! What a bunch of dumb-asses.)</small>.<br/>
<br/>
We need to short-circuit the exchange of the final goods because the corporate-run governments will continue to increase the number and variety of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ts they claim citizens are not allowed to sell to one another.<br/>
<br/>
Direct Consumer <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership in the manner I envision side-steps this bullshit by eliminating the exchange of goods altogether - for the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers of a Apple tree does not *buy* Apples, but <a href="own.htm">own</a>s them already as a side-effect of his <a href="own.htm">own</a>ing the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es.<br/>
<br/>
Please let me <a href="know.htm">know</a> if what I describe does or doesn't <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e sense.<br/>
<br/>
Thanks,<br/>
Patrick<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-06-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
Michel Bauwens wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> prefer that both consumers and <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ers <a href="own.htm">own</a></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> their means of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion to the maximum extent</span><br/>
<br/>
I want <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ers to have <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership IF IT IS THE RIGHT THING, but have not yet seen a good argument for them spending their value in that direction.<br/>
<br/>
What I <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>ose - even as it stands now - does not *disallow* <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers from investing in the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion.<br/>
<br/>
The thing that will determine where <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership flows in the system I envision will be the treatment of <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a>.<br/>
<br/>
If the "Terms of Incorporation" says <a href="part.htm">part</a> of <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> must be treated as the <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er's investment, then they will gain <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership alongside the Consumer.<br/>
<br/>
Since I don't see this as a major threat to the <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a as a whole, I am going to try to assimilate it into the <a href="new.htm">new</a> form so I can get this business going.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> I remember you had no concrete interest in</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> implementing it, only to talk and argue about it,</span><br/>
<br/>
Well, I didn't have any <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y <a href="back.htm">back</a> then, and was still trying to iron out the bugs, so couldn't yet go forward with implementation.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> and to convince people 'by reason', that</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> your system is the best ever</span><br/>
<br/>
Sorry that is what you see. I think Kevin has a similar view according to his "Rosetta Stone" comments in the past...<br/>
<br/>
I don't care *who* is right.<br/>
All I care is *what* is right.<br/>
<br/>
And the reason I care is because we need to get this figured out so we can incorporate in a <a href="new.htm">new</a> way that will <a href="protect.htm">protect</a> us from the <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent system.<br/>
<br/>
I kept asking why the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers need <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership because I didn't understand why they needed it.<br/>
<br/>
Even now I still don't understand, but I think it is best to concede that point <a href="part.htm">part</a>ially so I can attract others to invest with me since it is such a hot psychological issue.<br/>
<br/>
One problem I will have when changing the "Terms of Operation" is to <a href="know.htm">know</a> how much the <a href="work.htm">Work</a>ers should receive compared to those who <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> at the point-of-sale.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> I favour the sovereignty of the creators of value,</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> that's all, it's an a priori preference, and I accept,</span><br/>
<br/>
I also want those who add value to be sovereign.<br/>
<br/>
And for those who do not add value <small>(<a href="bank.htm">bank</a>ers and bums)</small> to have little or no say.<br/>
<br/>
I see that sovereignty coming through <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the Means of what those <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers consume.<br/>
<br/>
But will try to understand and merge the <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as of the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers needing extra <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in everything they operate so we can get this <a href="part.htm">part</a>y <a href="start.htm">start</a>ed.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-06-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
Michel Bauwens wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>ally, a coop should <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e all <a href="part.htm">part</a>icipants</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> cooperators, and not hire labour</span><br/>
<br/>
Assume for the moment I <a href="agree.htm">agree</a> <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers need equal <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Some questions:<br/>
<br/>
1.)</small> If you will not allow the cooperative to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers, then why would they <a href="work.htm">work</a>?<br/>
<br/>
2.)</small> How will the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> for things like food and shelter if they are not being paid?<br/>
<br/>
3.)</small> What benefit is there for a member to declare himself a <a href="work.htm">work</a>er as opposed to being a consumer only, who can just be lazy? In other words, what is the <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence, or is there any <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence in 'compensation' if I do <a href="work.htm">work</a> for the cooperative or if I stay home and lay in the sun? If there is a <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence, then *how* is it <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>e<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> from what is now called 'wage'.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Thanks,<br/>
Patrick<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-05-2010:</span> Not yet Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
Kevin Carson wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> So my approach is to remove the structural conditions that <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e wage</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> labor <a href="art.htm">art</a>ificially prevalent, and to increase the bargaining power of</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> labor so that wage labor has less of a "master-servant" character</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> where it exists.</span><br/>
<br/>
This can be done by helping <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers to gain <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es of those things which they consume.<br/>
<br/>
Under those conditions, <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing for others is an option that can simply be ignored.<br/>
<br/>
You will still need to <a href="work.htm">work</a>, but can <a href="use.htm">use</a> that time tending your portion of the Salmon farm, your portion of the Barley acreage, your <a href="part.htm">part</a> of the Hops area, etc. for your <a href="own.htm">own</a> purposes.<br/>
<br/>
You will also have far more variety in the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion available to you, so you <br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> Or to paraphrase Clinton abortion, to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e wage</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> labor "safe, legal, and rare."</span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-05-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
<br/>
Alex Rollin wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> if the <a href="work.htm">work</a>er is not a consumer, what then?</span><br/>
<br/>
The <a href="work.htm">work</a>er is guaranteed to be the consumer of *something*, for no human can exist unless they consume the outputs of other organisms.<br/>
<br/>
So every <a href="work.htm">work</a>er needs <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in that which he consumes.<br/>
<br/>
And every non-<a href="work.htm">work</a>ing 'dependent' also needs <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in that which he consumes.<br/>
<br/>
This <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership <a href="protect.htm">protect</a>s each human from <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing <a href="profit.htm">profit</a> and also gives him full dominion over that <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion.<br/>
<br/>
Even more astounding, when a <a href="work.htm">work</a>er <small>(human)</small> has sufficient <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es of that which he consumes, then the 'problems' of abundance and automation disappear. There is no longer a reason to throttle <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion or destroy <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t or be afraid of innovation.<br/>
<br/>
So it is true that <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers <small>(humans)</small> need <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership, but it is for the purpose of consuming, not for the purpose of <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing. We don't *need* <a href="work.htm">work</a>, we only *need* to consume.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Maybe the problem in understanding this concept is that we must consider all industries at once.<br/>
<br/>
Within the context of <a href="work.htm">Work</a>ers having sufficient <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es of those things which the *consume*, what reasons are there for <a href="work.htm">Work</a>ers to have *extra* <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es simply because they possess <a href="skill.htm">skill</a>s needed to operate those <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es?<br/>
<br/>
Disconnecting <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership from the <a href="work.htm">Work</a> allows humans to easily choose and change occupations without being bound to one course because of heavy financial investment.<br/>
<br/>
It is also more likely for us to escape the claws of the <a href="bank.htm">bank</a>ers since the number of humans that consume any <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t is almost always much larger than the number of <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers needed in that pursuit.<br/>
<br/>
Let's say I like to milk cows but am allergic to milk. I don't need any <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the dairy to successfully <a href="work.htm">work</a> there. What good would it do me?<br/>
<br/>
So I may not be able to consume cow-milk, but we <a href="know.htm">know</a> I must consume *something*.<br/>
<br/>
If I like Almond-milk, I need some <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in a Almond orc<a href="hard.htm">hard</a> and the equipment needed to create that <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t even if I never <a href="work.htm">work</a> there.<br/>
<br/>
My <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the orc<a href="hard.htm">hard</a> will <a href="protect.htm">protect</a> me from <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing <a href="profit.htm">profit</a> and will also give me full dominion over what goes into my body.<br/>
<br/>
The <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers in the Almond orc<a href="hard.htm">hard</a> and those who <a href="shell.htm">shell</a> and grind/press the nuts into milk need only as much <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in those <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es as they have interest in consuming that <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership in the <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es is vital for Consumers, but is only a liability for <a href="work.htm">Work</a>ers.<br/>
<br/>
The only value I see in <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership is the coercive power it gives them to stop other potential <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers from doing that <a href="work.htm">work</a> for a lower wage or to force those Consumers to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> more than <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>s in other ways.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-05-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
<br/>
Michel Bauwens wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> I'm in favour of governance and <a href="own.htm">own</a>erhship <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>els that combine stakeholders,</span><br/>
<br/>
I <a href="know.htm">know</a> you <small>(and most everyone else)</small> say the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers will otherwise be 'disenfranchised'.<br/>
<br/>
But what is meant by that *specifically*? What do the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers intend to gain as compared to the case where the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion are 100% Consumer <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ed?<br/>
<br/>
Will they <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>-up their wages by disallowing other, non-<a href="own.htm">own</a>ing <a href="work.htm">Work</a>ers from competing?<br/>
<br/>
Is this a form of '<a href="protect.htm">protect</a>ionism'? Does this mean <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ed enterprises do not qualify as "<a href="free.htm">Free</a> <a href="trad.htm">Trad</a>e"? I wonder what Kevin Carson would say.<br/>
<br/>
Will they force the Consumers to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> <a href="pric.htm">Pric</a>e above <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a> so they can collect that <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> as a reward?<br/>
<br/>
If so, then will the Consumers be disallowed from gaining enough <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership for themselves to 'escape' that punishment?<br/>
<br/>
What if a Consumer wants to <a href="pic.htm">pic</a>k his <a href="own.htm">own</a> Olives from his % of the <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a>ed orc<a href="hard.htm">hard</a>? Will he be allowed to supply that labor for himself?<br/>
<br/>
What if a Consumer discovers a way to automate that <a href="pic.htm">pic</a>king. Will he be allowed to fully <a href="own.htm">own</a> his portion of the orc<a href="hard.htm">hard</a> and <a href="use.htm">use</a> automation without <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing tribute to <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers that labor in other <a href="part.htm">part</a>s of the orc<a href="hard.htm">hard</a>?<br/>
<br/>
How will the <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers <a href="protect.htm">protect</a> themselves from consumers choosing automation?<br/>
<br/>
What is the reasoning behind forcing the consumers to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> the <a href="work.htm">work</a>er-<a href="own.htm">own</a>er even when the <a href="work.htm">work</a> is fully automated?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> the details matter less than the principle,</span><br/>
<br/>
We are supposed to accept this <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a without any <a href="back.htm">back</a>ing of logic? That sounds like religion.<br/>
<br/>
Why does this concept have priority over any other?<br/>
<br/>
What is the basis for this unquestionable declaration of truth?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-04-2010:</span> Not yet Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
<br/>
Samuel Rose wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> If not, they were surely <a href="free.htm">free</a> to at least debate and discuss.</span><br/>
<br/>
Debate and discussion is toothless against <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
Goals, even when they can be <a href="obj.htm">obj</a>ectively proven as more correct, are not chosen *unless* they can be made '<a href="pop.htm">pop</a>ular' by someone with that magic social <a href="skill.htm">skill</a>.<br/>
<br/>
It is this psychological disease that keeps the <a href="pop.htm">pop</a>ulous in-line while politicians <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e horrendously <a href="back.htm">back</a>ward choices such as choosing to <a href="rent.htm">rent</a> <a href="mone.htm">mone</a>y instead of issuing it for the nation as they should.<br/>
<br/>
Without <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty rights my unpopular <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as have nowhere to <a href="liv.htm">liv</a>e.<br/>
<br/>
Consider the <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a of <a href="user own.htm">User Own</a>ership - which I have repeatedly proven to be superior to <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership - and yet nobody will listen because they are hypnotized by the <a href="pop.htm">pop</a>ular <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>as of Marx and the dawning of a <a href="new.htm">new</a> day when all industry is <a href="own.htm">own</a>ed and operated by those wielding hammers and sickles.<br/>
<br/>
And consider the <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent discussion: Revealing my dislike for representative authority has <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ed exactly what I despise! : <a class="ext" href="http://P2PFoundation.net/P2P_Foundation_Board_of_Directors">http://P2PFoundation.net/P2P_Foundation_Board_of_Directors</a><br/>
<br/>
I keep telling myself to just give-up, but I cannot because I cannot do this alone and we must find a way to wrest ourselves from under the thumb of the usurists who keep us <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing mortgages and <a href="profit.htm">profit</a> even though these externalities could easily be eliminated *forever* if we would just gather together as Consumers to <a href="fund.htm">fund</a> <a href="use.htm">Use</a>-Value <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion for our <a href="own.htm">own</a> good while doing the same for latecomers by also treating their overpayments as personal investments.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-04-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
Subject: In Defense of <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership<br/>
<br/>
We read about a group of end <a href="user.htm">user</a>s investing for <a href="use.htm">Use</a>-Value alone at <a class="ext" href="http://P2PFoundation.net/Cooperative_Public_Phone_Booth_Model">http://P2PFoundation.net/Cooperative_Public_Phone_Booth_Model</a><br/>
<br/>
They say these Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion <small>(the phone <a href="boot.htm">boot</a>h)</small> has such low maintenance that there will be no need to hire anyone to do any <a href="work.htm">work</a>.<br/>
<br/>
But the initial connection of the <a href="boot.htm">boot</a>h to the phone company's lines must certainly have been done by a <a href="work.htm">work</a>er.<br/>
<br/>
And it seems likely there will be a time in the future when some <a href="part.htm">part</a> of the phone must be serviced where none of the <a href="user.htm">user</a>s has the expertise to do so.<br/>
<br/>
And even if a <a href="user.htm">user</a> can be found with those <a href="skill.htm">skill</a>s, why should he not receive some 'extra' <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership for his exertion even if he doesn't receive a Wage?<br/>
<br/>
So, in defense of the <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a that <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion cannot be fair unless <a href="work.htm">Work</a>ers have at least <a href="part.htm">part</a> of the <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership, shouldn't those <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers gain some <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in that phone <a href="boot.htm">boot</a>h?<br/>
<br/>
What do <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>onents of <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership hope to achieve for those who labor when they say <a href="user own.htm">User Own</a>ership is insufficient to '<a href="protect.htm">protect</a>' those <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers?<br/>
<br/>
In what way is a <a href="work.htm">work</a>er "disenfranchised" when he does not have extra <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership <small>(beyond what he needs as a <a href="user.htm">user</a>)</small> in the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion?<br/>
<br/>
When the <a href="user.htm">user</a>s <a href="own.htm">own</a> the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion they might hire <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers, especially when that labor is highly <a href="skill.htm">skill</a>ed.<br/>
<br/>
What demands will a <a href="work.htm">work</a>er proclaim and be able to require when he has 'sufficient' <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership?<br/>
<br/>
Will this <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership be <a href="use.htm">use</a>d to increase his <a href="own.htm">own</a> Wage? Does that mean <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ership is a form of <a href="protect.htm">protect</a>ionism against market-driven Wages?<br/>
<br/>
If so, then why would <a href="user.htm">User</a>s choose to include <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers in this way?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Sincerely,<br/>
Patrick Anderson<br/>
<a href="social sufficiency coalition.htm">Social Sufficiency Coalition</a><br/>
<a class="ext" href="http://SourceFreedom.BlogSpot.com">http://SourceFreedom.BlogSpot.com</a><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-02-2010:</span> <a href="work.htm">Work</a>ing an approach to <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>e that is even more direct, and even more "short circuit".<br/>
<br/>
The overall <a href="ide.htm">ide</a>a is to eliminate exchange of finished goods by instead selling the vertically integrated <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es <small>(VIS)</small> of that <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t as a '<a href="pack.htm">pack</a>age' deal...<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-02-2010:</span> Posted to <a class="ext" href="http://ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures">ListCultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures</a><br/>
Subject: Authority, Representation and Secession in a P2P <a href="net.htm">Net</a><a href="work.htm">work</a><br/>
<br/>
Can the concepts of authority and representation be <a href="use.htm">use</a>d within a <a href="net.htm">net</a><a href="work.htm">work</a> that claims to be Peer2Peer?<br/>
<br/>
Is it <a href="real.htm">real</a>istic to give *everyone* 'root' access to a shared re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e?<br/>
<br/>
Is it <a href="real.htm">real</a>istic to give *everyone* the <a href="key.htm">key</a>s to our community center?<br/>
<br/>
There seems to be a need for gate-keeping - especially when <a href="protect.htm">protect</a>ing ourselves from 'outsiders' that are not yet trusted.<br/>
<br/>
But even within a trusted circle, is there a level of scale when representation *must* come into play?<br/>
<br/>
This seems a valid question considering the failure of <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent 'authorities' and 'representatives' to achieve the goals of those they supposedly serve.<br/>
<br/>
But it also seems <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>icult to answer given the chaos that might ensue if there were no 'levels' of access to ... I'm not sure yet what needs to be constrained...<br/>
<br/>
I wonder if <a href="part.htm">part</a> of it may be the need to "slow down" the deliberation of change so we can discover what all other <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a>ers want in each case.<br/>
<br/>
But does such deliberation require 'representation' and levels of 'authority', or could it be done in some other way?<br/>
<br/>
If giving everyone 'root' access is wrong, maybe giving any one person 'root' access is also wrong?<br/>
<br/>
Is that why we tend toward *groups* of representatives?<br/>
<br/>
But even in that case we fail to achieve <a href="free.htm">free</a>dom because those committees almost invariably <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e decisions and enact policy that suffers from the problem of "Tyranny of the Majority" because there is not an easy way for individuals and minority sub-groups to secede from the majority without loosing all of their investments.<br/>
<br/>
It is said these minorities have the "Right to Leave", but that is not sufficient because they then relinquish all the value they have added.<br/>
<br/>
I think <a href="part.htm">part</a> of the solution lies in discovering a way for these non-majority groups to 'split' or 'fork' those physical re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es during such conflicts. But that pre-supposes they had <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership to begin with - which is usually not the case, so <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a>ership may be a pre-condition to sharing physical re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es in a P2P manner.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">*</span> Notice even things you may not think of as 'physical' - such as a wiki - <a href="real.htm">real</a>ly *are* because of the equipment needed to 'host' that activity.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">Aug-01-2010:</span> To: eskerda@<a class="ext" href="http://hacklaviva.net">hacklaviva.net</a><br/>
Hi mrc,<br/>
<br/>
Thanks for writing.<br/>
<br/>
I've been <a href="work.htm">work</a>ing the last few days on a completely <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>e<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> approach to my goals that may eliminate many of these appa<a href="rent.htm">rent</a> problems, but for now will try to explain what I mean within the <small>(loaded)</small> terms I chose for the text you are examining.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
mrc wrote:<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> The No's:</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> # Wage: Set between <a href="work.htm">Work</a>er and <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ers.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <small>(no wage further than an optional maintenance request should be allowed)</small></span><br/>
<br/>
Are you saying I cannot <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> a Dentist to fix my teeth?<br/>
<br/>
I <a href="know.htm">know</a> wage-slavery is a big problem now, but how will I attract <a href="skill.htm">skill</a>ed <a href="art.htm">art</a>isans to help me if I am not allowed to reward them in some way?<br/>
<br/>
Do you suppose they will do that <a href="work.htm">work</a> because they 'like' me? What if they do not like me? How can I get my teeth fixed if the only Dentist in the community dislikes me - even for no reason at all?<br/>
<br/>
Psychology sometimes plays tricks on people and they are biased against someone for no reason - such as - what if I remind the Dentist of someone they disliked in their past and for that reason they dislike me without consciously understanding why?<br/>
<br/>
What is the <a href="prop.htm">prop</a>osed manner of sharing <a href="skill.htm">skill</a>ed *labor* in the case that compensation is disallowed?<br/>
<br/>
How can I offer a service such as "clean the bathroom" in exchange for someone else helping me to fix my teeth?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> # To "Share" an <a href="obj.htm">Obj</a>ect means any action which causes the <a href="obj.htm">Obj</a>ect to be made</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> available to another <a href="user.htm">User</a> in any form or capacity of access that enables</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> other <a href="part.htm">part</a>ies to <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>e or receive copies, excluding subleasing. Sharing</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> includes the actions: display, host, perform, project, relay, <a href="remot.htm">remot</a>e</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> control, <a href="rent.htm">rent</a>, sell, serve, share, <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>e, transfer, transmit, transport.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <small>(Excluding subleasing is bad,</span><br/>
<br/>
My reasoning here is that subleasing is not necessary since that person can <a href="rent.htm">rent</a> the item directly instead.<br/>
<br/>
Allowing subleasing may disconnect the <a href="user.htm">user</a> from responsibilities they would otherwise be bound-to <small>(such as requiring they 'clean' the device being leased, etc.)</small>.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> royalty <a href="free.htm">free</a> & extra restrictions further</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> than the invitation are required pr<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>ditions)</small></span><br/>
<br/>
I'm not sure what you are saying here.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <small>(there are not need verbs like <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>e-share-sell are forbidden, dispaly,</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> host, perform, project are an OK Addon, and the others i doubt why they</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> are necessary)</small></span><br/>
<br/>
I'm trying to indicate when, or under what conditions the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers must follow the "Rules of Engagement" for a shared re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e so they cannot take advantage of those needing to <a href="rent.htm">rent</a> that re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e because of their <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent lack of <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> 1. <a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>es</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> * The "<a href="sourc.htm">Sourc</a>e" of a <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a> <a href="obj.htm">Obj</a>ect means the exact pa<a href="rent.htm">rent</a>s of this <a href="obj.htm">Obj</a>ect</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> or the preferred forms <small>(such as the <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hines, plants, tools, etc.)</small> for</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>ing copies of or <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>ifications to the <a href="obj.htm">Obj</a>ect.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <small>(I think the <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e "<a href="free.htm">free</a>dom"-availability is not a pr<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>dition for being</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> shreful further than the one conflicting with <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t liability)</small></span><br/>
<br/>
The deep reasoning for <a href="mak.htm">mak</a>ing physical <a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es accessible to the non-<a href="own.htm">own</a>ing <a href="user.htm">user</a> is to help that latecomer gain control over their destiny instead of being perpetually dependent upon those that are already established through <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <small>(Is there a need to specify as necesary that "<a href="own.htm">Own</a>ers should e<a href="stat.htm">stat</a>e wether</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> this Shareful Good necessarily requires other non shareful goods for</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> operating Fully. ... . At Fully there's the <a href="key.htm">key</a>: i may <a href="use.htm">use</a> a shareful</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <a href="compu.htm">compu</a>ter for a while just for decoration, if the operationing is <a href="left.htm">left</a> to</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> subjectiveness it gives an extra hint for in other cases peoplez not being</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> able to ban 'not sleeping in the corridor in my shareful house' which</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> i&#7743; looking for despite accepting including a Humble Moral</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Restrcitions..)</small></span><br/>
<br/>
I don't understand what you mean. Could you give another example?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> ....</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <small>(I'd love to include the <a href="mod.htm">Mod</a>ifying Good rights' policy and the exclusive</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> <a href="use.htm">use</a> if privacy is need, <small>(without invading the multiple cousing: ex: for</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> just me using this 5 floors shareful house i need it to be empty... wrong,</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> isnt' it?... )</small>)</small></span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<br/>
I don't think there is a problem because i view these transactions in the more <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>itional sense of <a href="own.htm">own</a>er vs. non-<a href="own.htm">own</a>er in an arrangement more similar to typical '<a href="rent.htm">rent</a>al' or 'lease' arrangements.<br/>
<br/>
It seems un<a href="real.htm">real</a>istic to me that everything is shared without limit and without accounting of who will be using it during that time.<br/>
<br/>
If the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers of a re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e do not want someone to be able to exclusively occupy all 5 floors of a shareful house, then they can simply withhold such excessive offers and instead only offer 1 floor for <a href="rent.htm">rent</a>.<br/>
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